Experience

[Tiger]

What kind of leveling system would you like to see? Currently we’re leaning towards skill based… Meaning if you swing a sword a lot at a monster and kill it, you gain not experience per se, but skill usage… That make since? Or would you rather stick with the ol’experience gainers?

Or maybe something else we haven't thought of? Whats your take on it?

 

[Lord_Cie]

World of Warcraft had levels and weapon skill points, in addition to talent points that you would decide how to distribute. I don't think we should attempt to be a WoW clone, but I do think a game with multiple advancement systems would be interesting, and would add to replay value.

 

[PYRO]

hmmmm, that reminds me of WoW and Dungeon Siege 2's level up system. I agree with Lord Cie, a multiple "level up" system would be neat. Like, use regular experience points to gain Hit Points. Level up your fighting with a weapon skill to gain Dexterity, and level up magic usage to gain Mana, etc.

 

[Arvec]

*wears necromancer robes*
*reanimates thread*

Maybe go with a Godwars MUD system, where you gain experience and then 'spend' that experience to raise your different attributes/learn skills? Maybe different classes could earn class skill/spell experience to spend on class-specific things in different ways - warriors simply use their combat skills, while clerics would get cxp for healing. This could be broken down even further by categorizing the skills in different groups - offensive/defensive skills for warriors or healing/protecting spells for clerics, for example.

Another alternative might be the experience 'pool' system, something similar to the advancement system in Fable or Earth and Beyond. Basically, you'd earn multiple types of experience in different categories (combat/magic, etc), which would either level up or would be spent within those categories. It would pretty much a middle ground between pure skill-based and pure level-based systems. Also, throw in the possibility of a 'generic' experience pool which would increase your 'level', thereby increasing HP and mana (don't remember what it's called in this game) pools, and/or grant skill/spell points.

I know I'm not being very specific, but I intentionally avoided that - I'd rather get other people thinking, or help put shape to other ideas.

 

[Navic]

I like Arvec's idea of a 'generic' experience pool. It makes for a complete "custom" character.

 

[Vena]

Level and points...

My all time favorite games were mostly from The Elder Scrolls:
Arena
Daggerfall
Morrowwood
IV Oblivion game

And other games they created, from dos to windows we all went. But what I liked about these games were the character options, so many, elven, dwarven metals, and amulents, rings, powers in all forms...just tossing an idea or opinion is all. :lol:

 

[Adamnan]

Speaking from my own POV, which is not an expert one by any stretch of the imagination, I guess you'd have to decide if you were trying to 'recapture the feel' of the original Yserbius with the standard class/exp/skill progression, adopt a newer style, or create something original.

I've mused on what system Ys2 would use for years since I loved the game and always wondered what kind of a sequel it could make so I might ramble a bit here, apologies. Never actually gave it a lot of detailed thought so this is probably long and scatterbrained.

____________________________

Classic & Class based:

If you were to go with a twist on the classic you could work from the fundamentals of the original and flesh it out. In Ys Classic you had 6 classes, 6 races and 2 alignments:

Knight
Barbarian
Ranger
Cleric
Wizard
Thief

Human
Elf
Dwarf
Troll
Orc
Gremlin

Order
Chaos

You could set up a DAOC/WoW style "RvR" or team-based PVP setting rather easily with this; assign the obvious races to obvious alignments (e.g., Humans, Elves, Dwarves to Order, Orcs, Trolls, Gremlins to Chaos), then allow them to work with any class/race combo per the original.

The drawback in the original was you had certain race/class combos that would just win in PVP against other race/class combos due to stat adjustments. An Orc Knight had the best defense in the game, iirc, as an example.

This kind of thing could be entertaining if tweaked out so that no single race/class combo had a majority advantage over others - or at the very least, rather firm suggestions made to players at creation stating what the powerful combos are and what to expect.

If certain race/class combos were additionally barred from certain skills (in Classic you could find all the skills and spells for any combo, I believe, giving the advantage to the fighter types at higher levels) you could get something of a better balance without supplanting that classic feel of the original; Knights can't get access to Wizard, Cleric or Thief skills and can only get Ranger/Barbarian skills to 50% cap of the primary class.

You could build on that by adding new races relatively easily; since you'd be reworking stats (I assume) and the mechanics behind them you'd have no issue adding, say, Demons to the Chaos side or Joyous Lepus to the Order side.

The other drawback to that kind of system is, while it retains that warm fuzzy recollection of the original, the "Bash mobs 4 teh xp" model is rather worn at this point. Just adding quest xp, per WoW, doesn't deviate from this much unless the quests are well written and engaging (which I don't personally consider WoW quests to be; they remind me of the most poorly written and insipidly generic fantasy drivel I've ever read, hello Lin Carter). That makes a ton of content work for you either way.

________________________________

Skill based systems:

I played Asheron's Call for about 2 years on Darktide, I had a blast there. The long and short of it is that a purely skill based system almost always devolves into one or two "best" templates that can do everything. They're easier to min/max than a class based system because you have more freedom to mix and match. Freedom is good but it backfires on the variety thing.

SWG had a lot of potential, they just implemented it horribly (imo, of course). It was a quick ride to become competetive - while your freshly experienced Pistolier wasn't going to take out a TKM jacked to the gills with everything maxed, you could participate in PVP/PVE with the same or others of like skill level and actually contribute, and this with only a few days/week of playing in the character.

The downside is that adding a low cap, while throwing people into the action quickly, requires a host of things to do alternative to the accepted grind - again, a ton more work content wise (and without content look where SWG went).

Both of those systems used the "If you're swinging/shooting this kind of weapon you get xp for it" though AC also had generic xp you could spend on skills. I (cringingly) have to say I like SWG's system better in theory in that it splits up the skill usage so you don't get one-man-wonders like in AC. Reduces freedom to add variety, if you will.

I liked the skill-based with the generic pool xp (already suggested by Arvec) but with the SWG type "class" splits that permit certain skills.

You could twist that up some by allowing cross-class skills from certain classes at X rate capping at X rate. Conjecture and speculation all, though.

_________________________

EvE Online has an interesting xp progression, where you simply select a skill to train and it takes X amount of time. Tier 1 skills may take 20 minutes whereas Tier 5 may take 72 hours, some higher skills may take weeks or months. These train even while you're logged out.

I thought it was interesting, but it breaks that curve that allows people to catch up. Sure, you can jump into things quickly in that game, but the simple fact is you will never achieve the heights of someone who joined a year before you.



Maybe by taking a combination of the above? I dunno. Anyway, time to go home~

 

[Kryghton]

I like the idea of having an experience pool that would allow us to spend on stats, skills and spells.

I also like a skill tree of sorts similar to the Diablo 2 system.


-Meph

 

[Dewm]

I gotta go with WoW on this one too. You gain exp, but you also gain usage for an ability that was used "Axes, swords, dodging, etc.."

 

[Arvec]

Yeah, yeah. So, I felt like bringing this up again. Here goes. Read the friggin' posts above this one, if you want to be clued in again

This is just an example for the purposes of discussion, to give more 'life' to the ideas. SO, was thinking, maybe a sample xp system would look something like this. Note that the cost to increase an attribute follows it in parenthesis. I'm not going into exact cost/exp ratios and such right now, as I wouldn't have any clue as to the exact attributes and their effects.

Level: 1 (300)
Experience: 300

Attribute:
Strength:.......1 (15)
Defense:........1 (15)
Agility:...........1 (15)
Initiative:........2 (25)
Dexterity:.......10 (5)

Health:..........40 (15) (per ten points)
Mana:...........40 (15) (per ten)

Dexterity: Just a though...should it be even possible to raise this, or somehow make it a composite of other stats, level, skills, and gear, kind of like it is now?

More details and possibilities regarding level:
Level could put a cap on attributes, forcing you to train it to raise attributes above a certain number. Raising your level would give you a bonus to 'a bit of everything', as it a symbol of general experience. Alternatively...Level could be removed entirely and your character could be simply the composite of all of your stats, skills, and spells. Speaking of skills and spells, they might look something like this:

Skills/spells:

Fencing:.......1 (15%)
Heal:............1 (25%)
Lockpicking:...0 (200)

Wait a second, wait a second...why are some with percentage and some just experience?

Well, I was thinking that you 'buy' the skill or spell with experience. But after that, it's usage is what levels up the skill! Also, X number of skills and spells would be available. To learn the others, you must use the skills or spells that are related to it (using heal to learn how to cast cure, for example).

OK, so, now we just kind of toss everything we just read out the window for a moment and start over. Isn't this fun? So we go back to something like...THIS!

Level: 1 (300)
Experience: 300
Combat Experience: 50
Magic Experience: 50
Adventuring Experience: 50

Attribute:
Strength:.......1 (15 CE)
Defense:........1 (15 CE)
Agility:...........1 (15 AE)
Initiative:........2 (25 AE)
Intelligence:....1 (15 ME)
Dexterity:.......10 (5 AE)

Health:..........40 (15 CE) (per ten points)
Mana:...........40 (15 ME) (per ten)

(Where CE is Combat exp, ME is Magic exp, and AE is Adventuring exp)

So, what's up with this? Well, in a particular battle lets say you did a lot of fighting, and valiantly slayed the creature with your sword/axe/mace/spear/butter knife. The reward might look like:

Experience: 15
Combat Experience: 5

But let's say you, instead, decided to kill the enemy with your glorious magic power (fizzled once or twice, but nobody saw). The reward might look like:

Experience: 15
Magic Experience: 5

What about adventuring experience? What, you want me to come up with everything? Looks like it might require the addition of new skills...or perhaps skills like leadership could be included here? Alternatively, things like using detect to find a new area, or picking the lock on a door for the first time, could gain you adventuring experience.

You successfully pick the lock on the door! You gain 15 adventuring experience.

Or something like that. Alternatively, the completion of quest goals could reward you with additional adventuring experience.

So, what's the general experience for, then? It looks like almost everything is covered! Well, general experience would allow you to raise anything - it would be experience you can use to fill in the gaps in your advancement. Say you prefer to use melee combat, but would like to dabble in magic without having to run to an easier area to use it in combat - you could continue your current level of fighting and put your general experience into magic. This would be representative of training in other areas. General experience is also the only type that can raise your 'level', giving you a boost to all of your stats and perhaps opening up new skills and spells, or raising a level-based stat cap (sound familiar?)

And if you didn't notice (or did) - yes, I snuck a new stat in there. Intelligence would be a modifier for magic damage. It may not need to be included, however, as there are other alternatives, such as using magic experience to raise the spell levels themselves, along with usage. But then we have the same situation we do now, where spell effectiveness will cap once the spell is levelled fully.

If I'm going too far into skills/spells, I apologize, since this is supposed to be a thread about experience

Speaking of skills/spells, the method of advancement would probably be the same in both systems. Wait, I told you to forget it, didn't I? Uhh.......

At any rate, the alternative would be to also allow the individual experience pools to level them up (as mentioned a few seconds ago).

THEN there's the issue of in-combat vs out-of-combat experience gains and skill advancement. If a skill can be used outside or inside of combat (heal, for example), should the expeirence gain on that skill be slowed to compensate? Should skills gain bonus experience if used in combat, to encourage said usage? Or should the issue not really be touched? what about non-combat skills?

Eh...I hope that's it. Maybe I should've split it into two posts